1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:00,400 Foreign. 2 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,200 Hello, this is Christina Ortina 3 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:27,560 Conti Donovan, and I'm here with my sister Tara 4 00:00:28,060 --> 00:00:31,730 Conti Bansal. And we have another episode of 5 00:00:32,230 --> 00:00:35,570 Messy Middle Lessons for you. Today we're going to be talking 6 00:00:35,650 --> 00:00:39,610 about joy. And part 7 00:00:40,110 --> 00:00:44,090 of the reason we wanted to talk about this topic 8 00:00:44,590 --> 00:00:48,370 is it is a word that I feel like is almost 9 00:00:48,450 --> 00:00:51,810 overutilized in our culture. It's, 10 00:00:52,210 --> 00:00:56,040 to me, has become a trendy word that you hear used 11 00:00:56,540 --> 00:00:59,840 in all different ways and places. And it's funny, 12 00:01:00,340 --> 00:01:04,120 it's not something that I in particular remember ever hearing 13 00:01:04,620 --> 00:01:08,680 about in my youth or even in my early 20s. It seems, 14 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:13,240 I don't know, that it's become trendy 15 00:01:13,740 --> 00:01:16,680 is the word that comes to mind. That might not be the right, the right 16 00:01:17,180 --> 00:01:21,080 word to use, but Tara and I talked about having 17 00:01:21,580 --> 00:01:24,900 joy as our theme for this season. And there were a 18 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,740 lot of reasons why I think we chose not to do 19 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,980 that. But we still felt like it was a topic worth discussing. 20 00:01:33,380 --> 00:01:36,900 So that's what we're going to spend a few minutes today. 21 00:01:38,740 --> 00:01:42,180 And I guess my first question to you, Tara, 22 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,860 would be, you know, how do you define joy? 23 00:01:46,740 --> 00:01:50,870 Yeah, and I 24 00:01:51,370 --> 00:01:55,710 was thinking the same thing. Like, how is joy different than like 25 00:01:56,210 --> 00:01:58,190 happiness versus even? 26 00:01:59,870 --> 00:02:02,910 I don't know. I think of joy as a feeling. 27 00:02:04,430 --> 00:02:07,990 And I think I read a 28 00:02:08,490 --> 00:02:11,790 book and we'll have to re. I think her name's 29 00:02:12,290 --> 00:02:17,360 Ingrid something Lee or Ingrid Lee something that 30 00:02:17,860 --> 00:02:21,280 she talked about. Joy is something 31 00:02:21,780 --> 00:02:25,440 you experience in a moment and 32 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,120 happiness is over more. A longer 33 00:02:30,620 --> 00:02:34,360 time period. I don't know if that is true. I mean, 34 00:02:34,860 --> 00:02:38,480 that's interesting because that's in, in the little bit just of 35 00:02:38,980 --> 00:02:42,370 reading I've done about joy, it seems like there's almost two camps. The, 36 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,840 there's this idea that it, it's something that's unexpected in 37 00:02:46,340 --> 00:02:49,680 a spark. And you know, it's. It's these quick bursts 38 00:02:50,180 --> 00:02:53,320 of things. But, but then there's other people that actually see 39 00:02:53,820 --> 00:02:57,640 joy as very different in the sense that it's. 40 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,840 I don't know, it's a more continual underlying 41 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:06,960 feeling that's not related to, to short events 42 00:03:07,460 --> 00:03:11,010 or things like that. It seems like there's two different ways that people 43 00:03:11,090 --> 00:03:14,610 view it. I do feel like modern society 44 00:03:14,690 --> 00:03:18,290 now, like when we talk about does it spark joy? It is that 45 00:03:18,790 --> 00:03:22,330 more kind of intense, quick thing 46 00:03:22,830 --> 00:03:26,170 in the moment. Yeah. That is a reaction to stuff. 47 00:03:26,670 --> 00:03:29,410 But I don't know. I mean, it does seem like. 48 00:03:31,170 --> 00:03:35,090 And of course, joy itself comes. I think originally it was much 49 00:03:35,590 --> 00:03:39,550 more a spiritual and religious connotation. Like when you go back, 50 00:03:40,030 --> 00:03:43,390 you know, in history, the word joy had a 51 00:03:43,890 --> 00:03:47,630 very different meaning and it was tied to sort 52 00:03:48,130 --> 00:03:51,670 of your spirituality, spiritual community and. Yeah. And I think 53 00:03:52,170 --> 00:03:56,190 that people who see it as more of like an underlying 54 00:03:56,350 --> 00:03:59,950 state, something that's continual, 55 00:04:00,670 --> 00:04:05,630 it's. It's more tied, I think, to those roots where 56 00:04:06,130 --> 00:04:11,550 it. I don't know, it's you. 57 00:04:12,050 --> 00:04:15,630 You receive joy. It's something that's ever present in your life because 58 00:04:16,130 --> 00:04:20,230 of certain practices, whether it's connection with people or gratitude 59 00:04:20,310 --> 00:04:24,390 or relationships. And giving 60 00:04:24,890 --> 00:04:28,190 back kind of give you this. It's like 61 00:04:28,690 --> 00:04:32,270 a foundation of joy that sits under. And happiness is supposed to 62 00:04:32,770 --> 00:04:35,670 be like a more fleeting reaction. 63 00:04:36,390 --> 00:04:39,830 So I guess that's part of my struggle with this word. And I 64 00:04:40,330 --> 00:04:43,830 do think some of it is just. It means different things to different people 65 00:04:44,230 --> 00:04:47,830 and different circumstances too. 66 00:04:48,470 --> 00:04:51,830 I don't know. Does that make sense? It does make sense. 67 00:04:51,990 --> 00:04:55,270 I mean, when I. 68 00:04:55,750 --> 00:04:59,680 And I like the word 69 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,080 joy better than happiness, 70 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,200 I guess it's more almost just if you use it consistently one 71 00:05:07,700 --> 00:05:11,560 way or the other. Yeah. You know, and I remember 72 00:05:12,060 --> 00:05:15,680 reading a long time ago, people have a different happiness set point 73 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,840 of just like with their demeanor and how they view 74 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,240 themselves and life. So to me that is 75 00:05:24,740 --> 00:05:27,870 a broader. And I think I just have always thought of 76 00:05:28,370 --> 00:05:32,710 happiness as more like this bigger, 77 00:05:33,210 --> 00:05:36,670 broader baseline, possibly in 78 00:05:37,170 --> 00:05:40,630 your life. And so I guess maybe it's because 79 00:05:41,130 --> 00:05:45,310 of that book I read or whatever. But I do think of joy as 80 00:05:47,070 --> 00:05:50,630 a reaction to something. Yeah. Or more like in a 81 00:05:51,130 --> 00:05:55,080 moment, something you feel. Yeah. And I do think it is used 82 00:05:55,580 --> 00:05:59,440 that way. I mean, even trying to 83 00:05:59,940 --> 00:06:03,360 think. The Japanese cleaning lady, Marie, 84 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,520 you know, Kondo, her whole thing was does it spark joy that whether 85 00:06:08,020 --> 00:06:12,960 you kept it or not. And that's a very instant feeling. 86 00:06:13,460 --> 00:06:17,040 I don't know. Yeah, reaction or. Yeah, reaction to something. 87 00:06:19,110 --> 00:06:24,830 I mean, some people I think would say happiness is. It can 88 00:06:25,330 --> 00:06:29,350 be tied to more external things like status, life satisfaction, 89 00:06:33,190 --> 00:06:36,470 success in career or family. 90 00:06:37,110 --> 00:06:40,430 I don't know. So I do think. I guess the question does. Does it really 91 00:06:40,930 --> 00:06:44,230 matter, these differentiations between joy and happiness? 92 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,480 I don't think so. I guess it's more just making 93 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,120 sure we're speaking the same language. 94 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,600 Does it really matter? Probably not. It's just 95 00:06:56,840 --> 00:06:58,440 what it means, 96 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:03,080 especially for us and how we're going to use it. 97 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,280 Because our closing question that we're 98 00:07:07,780 --> 00:07:11,000 going to try to do at the end of each episode is asking 99 00:07:11,500 --> 00:07:14,930 either our guest or Tina or I will. Will try to answer, 100 00:07:15,410 --> 00:07:19,170 like, what is bringing us joy at 101 00:07:19,670 --> 00:07:23,130 that moment? Right. Like. Or that Day. Something to me that's kind of 102 00:07:23,630 --> 00:07:27,410 interesting and fun to think about. I agree. 103 00:07:27,810 --> 00:07:31,730 Yeah. I mean, I know in our last episode 104 00:07:32,230 --> 00:07:36,130 you gave an example of joy in your life. I mean, what are some 105 00:07:36,630 --> 00:07:40,290 things that do you think give you joy or bring 106 00:07:40,790 --> 00:07:45,110 you joy? Yeah. And seeing 107 00:07:45,510 --> 00:07:49,470 the leaves turn, being outside and 108 00:07:49,970 --> 00:07:53,110 feeling the sunshine on my face. And then part of 109 00:07:53,610 --> 00:07:56,950 me even questions like, is that big enough for joy? 110 00:07:57,910 --> 00:08:00,550 I don't know, maybe that's just pleasure. 111 00:08:01,190 --> 00:08:02,470 Like, I don't know. 112 00:08:07,970 --> 00:08:11,250 And is there something different or even like the word wonder? 113 00:08:13,810 --> 00:08:18,210 I. I would say like my friendships and different conversations 114 00:08:18,770 --> 00:08:22,370 give me joy. Like being with people that 115 00:08:22,870 --> 00:08:26,570 I love. Yeah. Like the 116 00:08:27,070 --> 00:08:31,170 example I gave last time was just seeing and hearing my boys play ping 117 00:08:31,670 --> 00:08:34,770 pong and just like hearing their laughter and hearing. 118 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,120 So even I feel like witnessing other people's 119 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,920 joy. Yes. Can bring new 120 00:08:43,420 --> 00:08:47,400 joy. There's a big. There's an article by David Brooks. 121 00:08:47,900 --> 00:08:51,279 It's actually, it's many years old. It made a huge 122 00:08:51,779 --> 00:08:54,920 impression on me when it came out. It's I think from 123 00:08:55,420 --> 00:08:59,600 2019 or 2020, pre Covid. But he 124 00:09:00,100 --> 00:09:03,640 talks, he tries to define the difference between happiness and joy. 125 00:09:04,140 --> 00:09:07,330 And he talks about how a 126 00:09:07,830 --> 00:09:11,570 big part of joy is seeing it in other people or 127 00:09:12,070 --> 00:09:15,690 seeing happiness in other people or seeing other people achieve things. 128 00:09:15,770 --> 00:09:19,690 And the quote he gives in 129 00:09:20,190 --> 00:09:24,090 the article, I wrote it down, is how joy is the present that life gives 130 00:09:24,590 --> 00:09:27,930 you as you give away your gifts. And he was talking 131 00:09:28,430 --> 00:09:33,270 about how he had been at a graduation and watching 132 00:09:34,470 --> 00:09:37,190 parents experience joy as, 133 00:09:37,670 --> 00:09:41,510 you know, their kids achieved this degree because it 134 00:09:42,010 --> 00:09:45,750 was a result of their sacrifice and hard work. 135 00:09:45,830 --> 00:09:49,590 And so, yeah, I actually really agree with that. 136 00:09:50,950 --> 00:09:54,430 I know that when I read his article that resonated 137 00:09:54,930 --> 00:09:58,310 quite a bit with me. I keep going back to 138 00:09:58,810 --> 00:10:02,690 when, when I think of joy, I'm questioning 139 00:10:03,190 --> 00:10:06,970 myself. Is it like more just like small moments of pleasure? 140 00:10:09,530 --> 00:10:13,370 But I don't know. Well, I mean, if it is a long, 141 00:10:13,870 --> 00:10:17,130 is that okay? Like, I mean, yeah, I think it. I mean, 142 00:10:17,690 --> 00:10:21,090 it's also one of those things where joy is sort of this 143 00:10:21,590 --> 00:10:25,600 underlying part of you makes 144 00:10:26,100 --> 00:10:30,160 up your. Your outlook and your attitude 145 00:10:30,660 --> 00:10:34,640 towards life. I mean, those small bursts would all contribute to it 146 00:10:35,140 --> 00:10:38,600 making it stronger and making it bigger. I don't know. 147 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,680 I mean, I personally believe that God 148 00:10:45,180 --> 00:10:48,920 wants us to feel and experience joy. 149 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,880 I mean, and as I say that, I also understand 150 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,000 that there has to be 151 00:10:57,500 --> 00:11:01,880 contrast to notice 152 00:11:02,380 --> 00:11:04,800 though that enjoyment. 153 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,520 But I don't know, 154 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,400 I think a big thing for me is you almost have to be 155 00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:17,400 present to notice. 156 00:11:17,900 --> 00:11:22,020 And experience the joy. Like I read an article on 157 00:11:23,700 --> 00:11:27,340 and this is part of, you know, my makeup and you hear me 158 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,860 talk about this all the time, but I am a maximizer and I'm always trying 159 00:11:32,180 --> 00:11:35,780 to like fit more in and be more efficient 160 00:11:35,939 --> 00:11:39,300 and do all this. And the article is just 161 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,820 how that robs you of 162 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,600 joy because you're not fully present and you're like 163 00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:50,520 working towards a goal or the future or achievement of something 164 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:56,000 instead of just being and experiencing the 165 00:11:56,500 --> 00:12:00,520 moment and being. In thinking about this topic, 166 00:12:01,020 --> 00:12:04,600 I mean that is something that actually occurred to me or I 167 00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:09,000 started wondering about is, you know, 168 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,080 this word joy and how you hear it in all these places is 169 00:12:13,580 --> 00:12:19,760 almost a reaction to like our digital super 170 00:12:20,260 --> 00:12:24,120 hectic, super hyped up world, you know, that it has kind 171 00:12:24,620 --> 00:12:28,719 of become this, this word that you hear all the time because it's 172 00:12:29,219 --> 00:12:32,160 almost a reaction to what so many of us, 173 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,480 even if we're not a maximizer, as you say. I mean, 174 00:12:35,980 --> 00:12:39,350 it's just hard in our, in our lives today with the digital 175 00:12:40,310 --> 00:12:44,470 media. And I think a lot of people experiencing 176 00:12:44,630 --> 00:12:48,470 burnout. I mean again, that's another word that you hear whether it's in your 177 00:12:48,970 --> 00:12:53,590 job or just I think because of post Covid things 178 00:12:53,910 --> 00:12:58,470 that. So I do think a lot of times we 179 00:12:58,970 --> 00:13:02,550 talk about joy because of these other things and it becomes 180 00:13:03,050 --> 00:13:07,330 something to strive for or it becomes a. A calendar, 181 00:13:07,410 --> 00:13:10,650 right? Yes. And just 182 00:13:11,150 --> 00:13:15,370 with like the amount of information at 183 00:13:15,870 --> 00:13:18,450 us all the time and the speed of change, 184 00:13:19,490 --> 00:13:22,890 I think that's why it's so trendy is 185 00:13:23,390 --> 00:13:26,410 because it's reaction kind of trying 186 00:13:26,910 --> 00:13:30,130 to fight against that or trying to. Right. It's almost like a resistance 187 00:13:30,630 --> 00:13:34,200 against. Against what? What we're inundated 188 00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:37,440 with on a daily basis. Yeah. No, I agree. 189 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,560 So what brings you joy right now? What comes to mind? 190 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,040 Yeah, I mean a lot of the things that you said, 191 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,320 I mean, I was also thinking about the word 192 00:13:51,820 --> 00:13:55,440 joy. It's used a lot in the holidays. 193 00:13:55,940 --> 00:14:00,400 And when I think about the holidays that to me it 194 00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:04,520 brings me so much joy. And it's because I'm with family. 195 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,400 Like you're celebrating life with the people you 196 00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:11,560 love and the people you want to be with. 197 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,720 And to me, I understand very much 198 00:14:16,220 --> 00:14:19,280 why that word is connected to 199 00:14:19,780 --> 00:14:22,920 the holidays. But to me, 200 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,580 a lot of joy for me is it 201 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,940 is definitely in nature. It's walking outside, 202 00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:35,340 it's tending my plants, it's just 203 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,460 sitting on our porch at dusk. It's a 204 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,900 morning sunrise. I don't know, like those things are 205 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,420 really what for me Ground me, 206 00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:52,330 inspire gratitude, and just make me 207 00:14:52,830 --> 00:14:56,130 happy to be alive. Yeah. And that's the other, to me is 208 00:14:56,630 --> 00:14:59,810 when I think of, like, what I'm grateful for, 209 00:15:01,410 --> 00:15:04,690 a lot of times it's something that gives me joy. 210 00:15:07,090 --> 00:15:09,810 Yeah, I would totally agree with that. 211 00:15:10,050 --> 00:15:14,050 Yeah. So those, to me, also go together in just trying 212 00:15:14,370 --> 00:15:19,580 to. I don't know, I feel like it's 213 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:24,340 just an association I have. Instead of trying to analyze 214 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,260 it and define it, I'm just putting that out there that, you know, things like 215 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:30,500 that, they go together for me. 216 00:15:33,460 --> 00:15:37,020 Do you feel like what 217 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,300 brings you joy has changed as you've gotten older? 218 00:15:44,910 --> 00:15:47,830 Because you said. I mean, I think part of it is, like, we didn't think 219 00:15:48,330 --> 00:15:51,950 about it as much. No. And that's some of it. You know, 220 00:15:54,830 --> 00:15:58,030 I don't think the concept of joy really was 221 00:15:59,710 --> 00:16:01,950 something that I thought about. 222 00:16:03,710 --> 00:16:07,310 I don't know. I was well into my 40s, I would say, 223 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,000 because my reaction to that is I feel like most 224 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,840 young kids are so joyful. 225 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,440 Like, joy seems to come easily to them. 226 00:16:22,940 --> 00:16:26,320 Like, they take such. My point is, though, it wasn't something I thought 227 00:16:26,820 --> 00:16:30,200 of. Like, if you asked a child, are you feeling joyful? I don't think 228 00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:34,360 that's a word that's in, you know, their daily vocabulary. 229 00:16:34,860 --> 00:16:38,220 And I do think that's what I keep saying. I feel like that's what 230 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,460 has changed right now is it's a word that people refer 231 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,820 to, they think about. So. Yeah. 232 00:16:45,980 --> 00:16:49,220 But from an early age, I don't 233 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,660 know, every day I look for something that makes me happy or 234 00:16:53,820 --> 00:16:57,580 joyful. Something to look forward to, something to look forward to. 235 00:16:57,820 --> 00:17:01,660 Something that. And are those different things? 236 00:17:03,150 --> 00:17:07,310 Oh, yeah. I mean. And that's where, again, there's this range of. 237 00:17:08,270 --> 00:17:12,710 It could be. I'm gonna get a latte from the 238 00:17:13,210 --> 00:17:16,630 coffee shop downtown, you know, or I'm gonna go 239 00:17:17,130 --> 00:17:21,190 for a walk at Jacobsburg, or I'm gonna 240 00:17:21,690 --> 00:17:24,550 read my book for 20 minutes on the porch. I don't know. 241 00:17:25,050 --> 00:17:27,870 Like, it. They're very, very small, everyday things, 242 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,360 and yet they give you joy. And I 243 00:17:32,860 --> 00:17:37,280 feel like actually. Or. Yeah. They either 244 00:17:37,780 --> 00:17:40,880 bring me a sense of peace or a sense of renewal. Even though it's a 245 00:17:41,380 --> 00:17:46,280 short, you know, something to look forward to and then something afterwards 246 00:17:46,780 --> 00:17:49,720 to say, oh, that was amazing. Yeah. 247 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:52,920 I don't know. How about you? 248 00:17:57,890 --> 00:18:01,170 What was the question? Do I feel like I experience joy differently? 249 00:18:01,730 --> 00:18:04,290 Yeah. I mean, 250 00:18:05,970 --> 00:18:10,130 going back to. I just feel like, as kids, 251 00:18:11,010 --> 00:18:15,170 and I think this is part of just the stress and pressure 252 00:18:15,410 --> 00:18:22,690 of our culture and life of, you Know when 253 00:18:23,190 --> 00:18:26,890 you're really young. And that's what I think of, like, in elementary school and 254 00:18:27,390 --> 00:18:31,970 younger, like, there's no expectations 255 00:18:32,130 --> 00:18:35,809 and you just get to, like, experience all these new 256 00:18:35,810 --> 00:18:39,810 things. So I feel like you get to witness joy 257 00:18:40,130 --> 00:18:43,570 in young kids so much easier. 258 00:18:45,340 --> 00:18:45,580 And. 259 00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:50,940 And I don't. 260 00:18:53,420 --> 00:18:56,780 I feel like in school and 261 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,540 even after school I was so focused 262 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,740 on doing well and that I 263 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,100 don't feel like I noticed joy the 264 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,760 way I do now. And I also think as you get older, 265 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,640 certain things feel more precious 266 00:19:19,140 --> 00:19:22,360 and finite. So I think that's something that's changed with 267 00:19:22,860 --> 00:19:25,760 age, is like. Yeah, you have a different perspective. 268 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,400 Yeah, for me. Yeah. 269 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,480 But to your point, like, I don't think I thought 270 00:19:32,980 --> 00:19:36,640 about it, you know, as much as we 271 00:19:37,140 --> 00:19:40,220 do now. And I don't know if 272 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,420 that is because it's trendy and getting so much attention or 273 00:19:47,980 --> 00:19:51,660 because we need it, you know, like that. Yeah, no, 274 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,780 I understand. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. 275 00:19:55,340 --> 00:19:58,380 I mean, is. Do you 276 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:04,380 talk to your family or friends about this 277 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,220 concept of joy or what brings people, you know, joy? Like, is that something that 278 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,620 has ever made it into a conversation with. 279 00:20:13,620 --> 00:20:17,060 With your. Your immediate family, Nimit. And your boys 280 00:20:17,140 --> 00:20:20,820 or with close friends? Probably not. Not really that 281 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,820 as much like, we always. We often do. 282 00:20:24,900 --> 00:20:28,740 What was your highlight of the day or low light of the day? 283 00:20:29,220 --> 00:20:32,820 And. But to me, that's. So I guess sometimes 284 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,890 that can be something that gives you joy, but not. 285 00:20:37,850 --> 00:20:41,010 And I feel like because of how I am, 286 00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:45,290 it's always grading things on a scale of 1 to 10, or what's 287 00:20:45,790 --> 00:20:49,170 your favorite? You know, that's like, what were 288 00:20:49,670 --> 00:20:53,850 your highlights of the day? I do that a lot, but almost that's 289 00:20:54,350 --> 00:20:58,930 counter to. I feel like as we're talking about it, just experiencing 290 00:20:59,430 --> 00:21:03,050 joy. Right. Like, it's. Right, it's evaluating instead of 291 00:21:03,990 --> 00:21:07,030 just living. Yeah. Yeah. Enjoying. 292 00:21:07,110 --> 00:21:09,510 Yeah. How about for you and your family? 293 00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:15,750 No, I don't think it's really something that we 294 00:21:16,250 --> 00:21:19,990 as a family have ever talked about. Yeah. 295 00:21:21,350 --> 00:21:26,230 I mean, one of the things is sometimes 296 00:21:26,550 --> 00:21:30,630 even with the holidays, and I know we talked about this in a previous episode, 297 00:21:31,130 --> 00:21:34,750 where the expectation is, you know, 298 00:21:34,990 --> 00:21:38,990 this is supposed to be fun and then there's 299 00:21:39,490 --> 00:21:41,710 this pressure around it or. 300 00:21:44,110 --> 00:21:48,230 And I think Brene Brown talks about foreboding joy of 301 00:21:48,730 --> 00:21:52,070 just, like, almost. Well, I think that's different. 302 00:21:52,570 --> 00:21:56,190 But almost, like, afraid to feel joy because 303 00:21:56,270 --> 00:21:58,750 then it's going to. 304 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,080 It's not going to last. Like, you have to deal with the. And then you 305 00:22:03,580 --> 00:22:06,560 have to deal with it. Yeah. So, 306 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:12,320 yeah, I mean, I think that raises 307 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,520 a point too. I mean, you talked about sort 308 00:22:18,020 --> 00:22:21,880 of how you feel as things that keep 309 00:22:22,380 --> 00:22:25,800 you from feeling joy. Just. Or used to. I mean, are there 310 00:22:26,300 --> 00:22:28,960 other, are there other obstacles to joy, 311 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:32,600 do you think, in our 312 00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:36,480 life besides just the busyness of social media and. 313 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,480 Yeah, I mean, I think it goes to not listening 314 00:22:43,980 --> 00:22:47,320 to yourself or people pleasing or doing 315 00:22:47,820 --> 00:22:51,840 the shoulds instead of like, just almost like paying 316 00:22:52,340 --> 00:22:57,730 attention to your body or to what 317 00:22:58,230 --> 00:23:02,090 naturally draws you. And that's something I 318 00:23:02,590 --> 00:23:06,130 think you can get better about noticing joy 319 00:23:07,010 --> 00:23:09,650 when you like set that intention. 320 00:23:12,130 --> 00:23:16,170 It's almost like you have your antenna out for it. And then when 321 00:23:16,670 --> 00:23:19,410 I get up in the morning, I sit in the same chair and I love 322 00:23:19,650 --> 00:23:23,580 the soft blanket that I put over me noticing that. 323 00:23:23,660 --> 00:23:28,100 And, and I feel like I didn't until I 324 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,300 made an effort to like notice the things that. Small things like 325 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,900 that. Yeah. I mean, I do think in 326 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,700 our culture too, I mean, 327 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,500 you kind of alluded to this and I think as we get older, 328 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,540 this gets easier. But I do think sometimes people feel guilty 329 00:23:48,620 --> 00:23:52,140 about taking the time 330 00:23:52,380 --> 00:23:56,220 to have a cup of coffee on the porch or 331 00:23:56,460 --> 00:23:59,740 go for a walk or like our, our culture 332 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,780 is so, you know, you need to be productive. You need to. 333 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,580 Yeah. You know, and I think that can 334 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,900 be harmful and just kind of realizing pretty 335 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,260 small day to day. Yeah. And when you started saying that my 336 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,140 mind went to like feeling guilty for 337 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,620 pleasures or feeling joy when there's so 338 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:31,500 much suffering and other like, like easily. 339 00:24:31,820 --> 00:24:35,900 That's probably a more accurate point. Right. Like why, 340 00:24:36,140 --> 00:24:39,460 why do I get to feel joy in my 341 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,750 life when there's so much miserable suffering out there? 342 00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:47,830 Yeah, I think that's, it's a good point, 343 00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:51,750 but I think not 344 00:24:52,250 --> 00:24:56,390 allowing yourself that doesn't 345 00:24:56,890 --> 00:25:00,550 help the situ that, you know, like counterproductive. Yeah. You're not gonna. 346 00:25:01,050 --> 00:25:04,670 Is counterproductive world. And yeah. And if, if these 347 00:25:05,170 --> 00:25:08,640 small acts of joy are what kind 348 00:25:09,140 --> 00:25:12,960 of give you strength to face 349 00:25:13,460 --> 00:25:16,720 some really hard things or I mean, they become almost more important, 350 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,920 you know? Yeah. And to me that is, that goes to like, 351 00:25:21,420 --> 00:25:24,960 I believe we're meant to experience joy. 352 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,800 And to your point, like, how much do we get 353 00:25:29,300 --> 00:25:32,000 in our own way to, 354 00:25:33,050 --> 00:25:37,010 you know, not experience it or stop ourselves from experiencing 355 00:25:37,510 --> 00:25:40,650 it because of wanting 356 00:25:41,150 --> 00:25:45,570 it to be perfect or wanting, you know, like more than 357 00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:49,610 what is there and letting that ruin different 358 00:25:50,110 --> 00:25:53,050 things? Yeah. Here's a. 359 00:25:53,690 --> 00:25:56,930 Do you think there's a 360 00:25:57,430 --> 00:26:00,650 thing of trying to pursue too much joy? 361 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:09,040 I don't. Yeah. Do you? 362 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,760 I guess it goes to. 363 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,800 Goes to that maximizing of Trying too 364 00:26:16,879 --> 00:26:18,320 hard can, 365 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,280 like, then gets in the way 366 00:26:24,780 --> 00:26:27,440 of, like, fully experiencing the joy. 367 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,440 If you're like, yeah, quote, I. I'm gonna 368 00:26:31,940 --> 00:26:35,410 butcher it. But it's. And they. I think the word used in this quote 369 00:26:35,910 --> 00:26:39,370 was happiness is like a butterfly. Like, the more you chase it, 370 00:26:39,870 --> 00:26:43,010 the harder it is to catch. But if you sit quietly, it will come sit 371 00:26:43,510 --> 00:26:46,490 on your shoulder. Yeah. It's really cliche, but. 372 00:26:47,530 --> 00:26:51,530 Yeah. That idea that the harder you 373 00:26:52,030 --> 00:26:55,770 go to pursue it, you know, it kind of defeats the purpose. Yeah. 374 00:26:55,850 --> 00:26:59,040 So that's what came up for me is. Yeah, 375 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,800 I mean, I suppose that's true. And I mean, 376 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,560 again, like, it's. 377 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,520 To me, a lot of what joy should come from is 378 00:27:11,020 --> 00:27:14,240 connections with other people. I mean, I think you 379 00:27:14,740 --> 00:27:18,280 could argue that if that is a big source of your joy, I don't think 380 00:27:18,780 --> 00:27:20,640 you can have too much of that. Yeah. 381 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,000 But I think it's almost the attitude or. Or the perspective. 382 00:27:26,500 --> 00:27:28,800 Yeah. Yeah. Like how you approach it. 383 00:27:29,380 --> 00:27:33,260 Mm. I mean, what. What do you think 384 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:38,540 you would do differently if you were prioritizing 385 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:40,260 joy for you? 386 00:27:42,020 --> 00:27:45,500 Um. Or do you 387 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,460 think you would do anything differently? No. I mean, I do think 388 00:27:51,380 --> 00:27:54,900 I mentioned this in the beginning. I do think that there are certain 389 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,590 components that can really increase joy. 390 00:28:00,510 --> 00:28:03,950 I think practicing gratitude is a big, big one. 391 00:28:05,150 --> 00:28:09,550 I think concentrating on social connection and relationships 392 00:28:10,050 --> 00:28:13,750 is another one. I think giving back in 393 00:28:14,250 --> 00:28:16,750 some way again is. 394 00:28:17,950 --> 00:28:22,110 And then, I mean, this is going to sound awful, but to 395 00:28:22,610 --> 00:28:25,130 just really try not to complain. I mean. 396 00:28:28,650 --> 00:28:32,410 Yeah. And I think 397 00:28:34,090 --> 00:28:37,690 we didn't mention that. Yeah. But that is, for me personally, 398 00:28:37,770 --> 00:28:41,450 those are components that. I think I do all of those 399 00:28:42,330 --> 00:28:45,530 in a certain extent, but for me, it would 400 00:28:46,030 --> 00:28:49,770 involve, I think, ramping up. I mean, I don't keep a gratitude journal 401 00:28:49,930 --> 00:28:53,210 or anything like that, but I can see where that has 402 00:28:54,610 --> 00:28:57,810 it. For me, it would have probably a terrific 403 00:28:58,450 --> 00:29:02,250 impact, and it's probably something I should take the energy and time to 404 00:29:02,750 --> 00:29:05,730 do. Same with giving back. I mean, 405 00:29:06,290 --> 00:29:09,250 yes, I do volunteering, but my volunteering is. 406 00:29:10,370 --> 00:29:14,050 I don't know. I think, again, it could be a lot more directed and intentional. 407 00:29:14,550 --> 00:29:18,250 I don't know. Hmm. Yeah. I mean, I've tried doing 408 00:29:18,750 --> 00:29:21,690 the gratitude journal, and. And it, like, 409 00:29:22,190 --> 00:29:24,210 robbed the joy. All the joy. 410 00:29:25,810 --> 00:29:30,130 It just felt like another task and it felt hard sometimes 411 00:29:30,210 --> 00:29:33,690 and, like, I didn't enjoy it. So it's 412 00:29:34,190 --> 00:29:38,490 just funny for me, I think it's more of 413 00:29:38,990 --> 00:29:43,050 the noticing. Yeah. And I love your making 414 00:29:43,550 --> 00:29:46,850 an effort not to complain. There is a coaching exercise of 415 00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:50,800 just for, like, one day, just tried not to Complain 416 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,000 and noticing, like, almost like 417 00:29:55,500 --> 00:30:00,240 biting your tongue, you know, it's hard to catch yourself but realizing how 418 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,640 often you do it. And I think. 419 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,840 I think most of us know of certain people who. It seems 420 00:30:08,340 --> 00:30:12,280 like they complain so much and. Yeah. And what effect that 421 00:30:12,780 --> 00:30:15,840 has. I think it's any. All of us. 422 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,600 So much of our conversations with others are complaining about 423 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:20,720 it. Yeah. 424 00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:25,820 Neighbors. The people we, you know, interact with. 425 00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:29,460 And. Yeah. It's life. I don't know. So, 426 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,460 yeah, I think that's. It's hard not to do. 427 00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:37,020 It is hard not to do, and. 428 00:30:38,380 --> 00:30:43,020 But I feel like I've heard it 429 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,620 can make a difference when you really do try to stop 430 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,660 yourself from doing it, because it's one of those. Your energy goes where 431 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,940 your focus is, and so it just brings you down. 432 00:30:56,620 --> 00:31:00,180 I know what you're saying, though, about when things become a task. 433 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,620 I mean, I've talked about this multiple times 434 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,260 on. In previous episodes, but, you know, 435 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,180 part of the reason I didn't want to do a triathlon or a 436 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,150 race was because I didn't want to have 437 00:31:16,650 --> 00:31:20,390 to. To become a task. Same with. When I talked about 438 00:31:20,950 --> 00:31:25,510 my experiment with my garden. I didn't want taking 439 00:31:26,010 --> 00:31:29,510 care of the garden to become a task. Like, it was something that I 440 00:31:30,010 --> 00:31:33,350 enjoy. And I don't know, there is kind 441 00:31:33,850 --> 00:31:37,510 of that fine line between 442 00:31:37,670 --> 00:31:40,950 something becoming something that you enjoy becoming something 443 00:31:41,450 --> 00:31:45,230 that you. Something you no longer enjoy. Because, you know, 444 00:31:45,730 --> 00:31:48,990 it. It. You have to. It becomes something you have to 445 00:31:49,490 --> 00:31:54,550 do. Yeah. Yeah. No, and I think that's interesting to 446 00:31:55,050 --> 00:31:58,230 think about. I mean, I know you mentioned a book at 447 00:31:58,730 --> 00:32:02,110 the beginning or have you read any other books that focus or talk 448 00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:06,310 specifically about joy? I read Arthur 449 00:32:06,810 --> 00:32:10,790 Brooks new book, and there's a big sub theme 450 00:32:11,290 --> 00:32:13,990 around joy, but it's also around purpose. 451 00:32:14,550 --> 00:32:18,390 And so that one 452 00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:21,990 comes to mind. But it's. I don't 453 00:32:22,490 --> 00:32:26,230 know, it's all the stuff we're talking about, like, it's all related and all intertwined. 454 00:32:26,730 --> 00:32:29,430 I think it is. That's what I think. The. We're really. 455 00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:36,000 This episode is really showing happiness, 456 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,240 joy, purpose, social connection. 457 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,800 And thinking about what gets in the way of 458 00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:49,120 joy, which I feel like we've talked a good amount. Like guilt, 459 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,800 efficiency, you know, obligation, 460 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:55,520 responsibility, 461 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,320 perfectionism. You know, there's a lot that can get in the way. 462 00:33:01,820 --> 00:33:03,950 Digital noise. Yeah. Mm. 463 00:33:07,150 --> 00:33:11,230 And I also feel like we keep 464 00:33:11,730 --> 00:33:16,150 saying this, but for me, there's a relationship 465 00:33:16,650 --> 00:33:20,030 between joy and being present almost. 466 00:33:20,190 --> 00:33:23,470 You can't experience joy unless you are present to 467 00:33:23,970 --> 00:33:27,470 it or present in it. Yes, I would totally agree yeah. 468 00:33:27,630 --> 00:33:29,470 And so that's something that I think can, 469 00:33:31,900 --> 00:33:35,660 you know, get in the way of joy is just not being present. So. 470 00:33:36,540 --> 00:33:39,900 Yeah. Any other questions that you had? 471 00:33:42,060 --> 00:33:45,580 No, I think we covered most of mine. Do you any more 472 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,140 on yourself? I think the one this is, 473 00:33:50,460 --> 00:33:53,980 I think the book I read 474 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,260 was around play, and I'm gonna have to go back and look. So that to 475 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,900 me is something like the relationship of 476 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,980 play to joy. And, 477 00:34:07,740 --> 00:34:11,819 and I guess, like when I think of play, you hope 478 00:34:12,319 --> 00:34:16,140 it brings joy, but that play feels 479 00:34:16,300 --> 00:34:20,060 the opposite of work in that 480 00:34:20,700 --> 00:34:25,679 it's not a have to, it's more free and 481 00:34:27,359 --> 00:34:30,399 just the way you can do it. I don't know. 482 00:34:31,119 --> 00:34:34,959 And even play, I guess you could define it multiple different ways. 483 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:39,279 Yeah. What's your reaction to that? I don't know. 484 00:34:39,779 --> 00:34:43,559 I think play is a difficult term and I think it's difficult 485 00:34:44,059 --> 00:34:45,359 for adults. I mean, just, 486 00:34:47,839 --> 00:34:51,319 we don't play anymore. No, I think we do 487 00:34:51,819 --> 00:34:55,270 play, but I just. And maybe older people who are 488 00:34:55,770 --> 00:34:59,270 retired may have a different. But I mean, I don't know the 489 00:34:59,770 --> 00:35:03,550 way our lives are. Even play, to a certain extent, needs to be scheduled. 490 00:35:03,630 --> 00:35:07,470 You know what I mean? Like, we don't have time where you're just 491 00:35:09,870 --> 00:35:13,870 doing nothing and you think, oh, I'm going to go play. 492 00:35:13,950 --> 00:35:15,710 You know what I mean? It's, 493 00:35:17,310 --> 00:35:20,560 it's, it's scheduled into, I don't know, 494 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:26,960 a walk with friends or a softball game or so. 495 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,560 Yeah, I think play, I guess that whole idea is 496 00:35:32,060 --> 00:35:36,560 just for me, hard to get my mind around at 497 00:35:37,060 --> 00:35:40,560 this point in our lives. But I also 498 00:35:41,060 --> 00:35:44,880 think with kids there's not as much just free 499 00:35:45,380 --> 00:35:48,830 play. Yeah. I don't think kids have as much free time. 500 00:35:49,150 --> 00:35:53,590 When I think of, like, what we did growing 501 00:35:54,090 --> 00:35:57,910 up and especially in the summer, there'd be just a neighborhood kick 502 00:35:58,410 --> 00:36:01,470 the can game and people, you know, it wasn't planned. 503 00:36:01,970 --> 00:36:05,150 It wasn't. It was just who was spontaneous. Yeah. 504 00:36:06,190 --> 00:36:10,150 And now I feel like there's so much structured sports 505 00:36:10,650 --> 00:36:14,140 and structured other things, Activities. Yeah. 506 00:36:15,580 --> 00:36:19,100 And that doesn't mean that they can't be fun and bring joy 507 00:36:19,180 --> 00:36:23,180 and happiness. It's just, it's kind of just a different mindset, 508 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,620 I guess. And I think that's part of when I think of the 509 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:30,460 play and playfulness. 510 00:36:32,860 --> 00:36:36,380 I associate it with some more with 511 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,820 joy. Just because it's not an obligation and not a. 512 00:36:41,610 --> 00:36:45,450 Yeah. There's no expectations around it. 513 00:36:46,490 --> 00:36:49,650 Anything else? I think we 514 00:36:50,150 --> 00:36:51,690 probably beat this topic to death. 515 00:36:53,210 --> 00:36:56,250 I think this was fun. I, I, I don't know, 516 00:36:56,570 --> 00:36:59,450 Tina. I feel like the more you talk, the better I. 517 00:37:00,650 --> 00:37:04,650 Oh, brother. But no, I. I thought 518 00:37:05,150 --> 00:37:09,130 this was really good. Well, yeah, I hope it makes people think 519 00:37:09,630 --> 00:37:12,530 about joy in their own lives. Either the. 520 00:37:13,250 --> 00:37:16,850 The abundance of it or maybe the lack of it. And you 521 00:37:17,350 --> 00:37:20,130 know, how to change some of those things, 522 00:37:20,610 --> 00:37:23,810 get more of it and start noticing it. To me, that's the 523 00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:27,970 word. Start noticing. Almost. I feel like it's there. It's just for 524 00:37:28,470 --> 00:37:31,810 us to notice. Oh, I totally agree with that. 525 00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:36,340 But again, it's breaking down some of these obstacles that 526 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,700 we talked about, you know, that. That keep us from. 527 00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:44,100 From being present and seeing what. 528 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,500 What is there. All right. I loved 529 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,620 it. Thank you. As we move into 530 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:58,150 cooler weather, something that is bringing me joy right now is 531 00:37:58,650 --> 00:38:02,270 the simple pleasure of having a fire in our living room fireplace. 532 00:38:03,230 --> 00:38:07,230 My parents, all throughout my childhood, and as the youngest adult, 533 00:38:07,630 --> 00:38:11,470 would gather all of us in the late afternoon 534 00:38:11,970 --> 00:38:16,270 and evenings of fall and winter around a wood fire crackling 535 00:38:16,350 --> 00:38:19,750 in our fireplace. And I am 536 00:38:20,250 --> 00:38:23,430 very lucky to have married someone who is attached to this 537 00:38:23,930 --> 00:38:27,770 practice as well. We recently had our first fire of 538 00:38:28,270 --> 00:38:31,250 the season, and while it was just my husband and I, 539 00:38:33,170 --> 00:38:37,410 it is impossible for me to sit in front of the 540 00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:41,169 coziness and warmth of a wood fire without thinking of 541 00:38:41,669 --> 00:38:44,290 my children, my parents, my siblings. 542 00:38:45,650 --> 00:38:49,690 Sitting in front of a wood fire brings me happy 543 00:38:50,190 --> 00:38:54,090 memories of celebration, connection, and quiet 544 00:38:54,590 --> 00:38:58,210 reflection. It is a touchstone for me of 545 00:38:58,710 --> 00:39:01,410 happiness and peace and, yes, 546 00:39:01,570 --> 00:39:03,090 joy. Happy fall.